(only in English)
(only in English)
An interview with
K. Yoshigasaki Sensei 7.Dan (at that time)
Chief Instructor of Ki no Kenkyukai Europe
The interview was made by Aragon from Iokai Shiatsu School in Den Bosch, Holland in 1996
What is Ki?
Ki is a Japanese word which is written with a Chinese character so there is a Chinese meaning and a Japanese meaning of the word Ki which are very different which creates much confusion.Offcourse for the Chinese meaning -I suppose that the Chinese pronounce it as Qi or something like that-you better ask the Chinese people, but since I am Japanese I prefer to use the word Ki in the Japanese way. So in the Japanese meaning ki is something which is unclear, something that cannot be defined. In daily life it means something like feelings, sentiment or emotions or ideas which are not yet clear but will become clear later. Or some motivation, etc, etc. That is why to understand Ki is very important in the sense that it is a proces of understanding one´s own life and understanding ourselves.
Sensei, do you have a certain goal by teaching the form of Ki-classes and also Ki-Aikido?
Teaching in the Ki-class is in a way the basic. But then the thing is that the practise of Ki is in daily life, thats the only way; but that is rather difficult. That is why i do this Ki-Aikido, meaning we use Ki-principles for the practise of physical martial art Aikido so that people have a good exercise and the practise of Aikido can be integrated in one´s daily life and in this way it is easiere for people to continue. Another reason is, that by practising Aikido techniques certain Ki-things are much easiere to explain and understand. So i really think that Ki- Aikido is a very good form to practise Ki.
When people are talking about Ki, there could be still a shadow of the martial arts like Aikido.Do you have any examples if non martial development in people?
Ki practise is good for everybody, but the thing is that on a superficial level it is very easy for everybody. Whenever you want to go to a deeper level, youhave to live with it. That is the difficulty. So normally people need some physical activity which could be something like Yoga or Taichi, or a therapy, it doesn´t really matter what. But then it is clearly better if people can use Ki-principles in the physical activites. That is why Aikido is good, but if other people can use Ki-principles in their daily life that is also fine.
Sensei, you explained about the difference between Ki class and Ki-Aikido, but could you specify on your goal in a bigger meaning, like why are you teaching Ki anyway?
Why I am teaching Ki is because nobody else is teaching it; that is basically why. But actually, at home I sometimes ask myself the question why I am teaching.When I hear other teachers teaching quite nonsense or mistakes, or when I see meditation books; most books are quite nonsense.So my motivation is since there are so many wrong teachings in the world, somebody should teach the correct thing.That is the only motivation of my teaching.
Could you give me a definition of science, and also an indication of what science is doing to our society?
There is the original science from Greek time. I suppose that in the Greek period the science was research of nature and the universe and the human being etc, etc. So this continues until the fifteenth century, before industrial revolution, and teh scientists are at the same time artists like Leonardo da Vinci, etc, but also filosofers, so these are all connected. But then after the industrial revolution in England, science became very material because they could use science for the purpose of the material progress of industrialisation. So after that industrial revolution science became very material, which is not so good for life, since material science is based on the material principle. Now people are starting to use science for life, because clearly the last, let´s say twenty or thirty years, we have seen that material progress is not enough. But then, especially university professors who try to understand human life with science called it human science, or something like that. Here arises a danger because it is fundamentally wrong to apply material principles on life.So these mistakes are doing harm to our life and will create more harm in our life.
That is why it is my purpose to propose something which can replace material science; meaning with something that has a structure as good as science.
Sensei, what means `Shin Shin Toitsu´, and `unity of mind and body´. Is it the same as coordination of mind and body?. What is mind, and what is spirit?
Both unification of mind and body, or unity of mind and body, and coordination of mind and body are the translation of the Japanese or Chinese words, so it is the same thing. This unification of mind and body, I don´t know who started this idea; maybe Zen people or maybe Chinese people, I don´t know. But this unification of mind and body is only a small part of what i am teaching. It´s a good concept, but not so important.
Mind is a concept: something which moves body. That is the normal concept of mind. Spirit is a religious word, so actually i never use the word spirit. For me, spirit is a word for religious people who believe ine God.
In the light of what you just explained, could you give me a definition of the word meditation?
Meditation too is an English word, and actually I don´t know who invented it. I can´t find any Japanese word which corresponds with meditation, so it is something which I don´t know quite well. Let us say it is a convinient word to describe certain activities with wich we can try to understand our own life in relation to the world. So in a way I use the word meditation to imply the activities to unify ones life and the whole world
Sensei, Ki and breathing seem to go together. Why is this, and is there a reason why we in general are breathing so inadequate?
So Ki is something which is not clear, but which becomes clear later. For the most people breathing is also Ki, because most people are unconcius of their own breathing. Sometimes the breathing becomes evidently disturbed without people noticing it; so to practise Ki in the daily life is one way to understand one´s own breathing. But then, to do this you must also understand the pactise of breathing as a basical practise of the diaphram, which must move well. That is the basic practise. And then after that we do the practise of no breathing, which means you must know your own breathing.
As I can feel myself, better breathing has a lot of implications. Is there more to say about the physical consequences of good breathing?.What about the relationship between breathing and emotions, and with awareness?
The influence of good breathing for health, well i suppose that good breathing helps to keep good health. I don´t have the statistics, but I hope that it is so. For the emotional part too. Many people don´t notice when they are breathing in a wrong way. Clearly, when you are breathing in a wrong way, your emotions are disturbed. Actually ther is no problem with emotions; only disturbed emotions, which means that breathing is disturbed. So with practising good breathing your emotions become clear and undisturbed. Then you´ll find that to have emotions is good, and in a way all emotions are nice
What is emotion?
Emotion is a movement in the body provoqued by or related to the movement of the diaphram.
Could you give me an idea of the functional meaning of emotions? why do we have emotions?
I don´t know why, but mostly when we percieve something outside, we have a reaction. When this reaction is not harmonius then the part which is not harmonius must be expressed by the movement in the body. So in a way to have emotions is always very good. The only thing is that when you are breathing in a wrong way then your diaphram is not moving correctly, so the inside movement is not harmonius, and not doing good for the body. And if emotions do good for the body that´s fine, but the reality for most people is that emotion disturbes the body, that is the problem.
Could you give me some idea of awareness; what is awareness? did you see any improvement of awareness by Ki breathing or Ki practise?
This word awareness too is a word which i almost never use, because I don´t really understand the meaning of it. So I cannot answer the question. But i can say why I don´t use the word awareness. To be aware means you percieve something which you did not percieve before. So clearly it is impossible to practise awareness because you can never practise to be aware of something. That is why when your mindis free, then there is a possibility that you can be aware of new things. That is why I never use the word awareness when i teach people.
Excuse me, I missed your definition of awareness.
To be aware of something means to percieve something i didn´t before. It is a discovery, that is why we cannot practise it, because we cannot practise discovering. We can discover only when the mind is free, so the practise is to keep our minds free.
Sensei, I often heard you explain that Ki class is for our own development, and that meditation is somethimg else than therapy. But in what way could a Ki class be interresting to a therapist.Could a therapist become a teacher of Ki?. Is that the meaning of the word setsudo?
First of all, Ki practise is for one´s own life. Whereas people who are interested in therapy are mainly interested to cure other people, so they are interested in other people. But then, the technique to do something for other people, to deal with other people, and the technique to deal with oneself are different. That is why I always say that this meditaion or Ki practise is not therapy. I found to explain this very important, because especially the psychology, people who practise psychotherapy use the theory of psychology, which is based on observation of other people. Wheras for meditation the theory is to observe oneself. I found it is especially important to see the difference between meditation and psychology. That is why I always make that clear so that people don´t use meditation as a psychotherapy.
And then, this setsudo is a Japanese word of which I don´t know who started to use it. It means to teach truth.
So as a teacher too, there are two types of teachers. Teacher who teaches techniques which is good for,in a way, everybody. Actually most teachers are like that, especially school teachers. But then this meditation teacher is different in the sense that meditation is what I see in my life. So I know my life, but I am never sure that what is good to my life is good to other people. The meditation teacher only knows something that is good to himself, and doesn´t know if that is good to others. So I hope that what is good to me will also be good to others, but I am never sure. That is why in meditation we never force people to do it; we just suggest and if people like it, they do it. But people do in their own responsability. But whereas for other types of teachers, they teach what is good for other people; they must have enough experience to know people and what is good for the people. That is the difference between the two types of teachers. But then it is that most teachers are of the second type, that means teachers who teach good things for others.
In the Ki sayings there is mention of unification of mind and body. What comes out of this is that everybody has a lot of power, which they has not always available. Could you explain a little bit about what you mean by power? Still, for many people this Ki class is related to healthy people and martial arts. Could you give me some examples maybe for just common people, old people who don´t have special physical abilities?
It is quite simple actually. There is a problem with the translation. This power means the ability to create change in life. E.g. if you are sick and you cure yourself- a sick person becomes a healthy person, that is power. Or if you have a big problem and you solve this problem, that is power. If everybody is excited and you are calm and clear, that is also power. So whatever that makes a change in life is power. But then clearly, by understanding mind principles and understanding body principles you can create better change in life.
That means you have more power, that is the meaning of it, And then, you have to understand one principle, and one principle means unification of mind and body.
I also asked this question because in the book " Ki in daily life" by Koichi Tohei Sensei, what strikes people most is the picture of you: heels on a chair, head on another chair and three people sitting on your belly. This is very close to magic for most people. But offcourse it is also suggesting some physical power.Why are you using this kind of examples in a book?
Actually it is not me who is in it. It is Tohei Sensei. There are two things. Since he started with Aikido he had experience with people who did Aikido, that means people who were not so interested in intellectual exercises. So clearly with people like that it is easy to use physical examples. And also that it is the Japanese culture that people don´t like logic with words, but more action with the body. So if you want to reach the Japanese people it is better to express with a powerful body and not so much with a powerful mind or powerful word. So it is a cultural thing. I understand very well that that method is not so good for European people
Could you give a clear example of an image for teaching KI to the European men and women?
It is also that the Japanese people have a very easy solution for the problem of thought. They just push away thoughts and do something physically. So in a way that is the Japanese tradition: that´s why they propose physical method. European people try to continue thinking and to solve with thinking; that is why I think it´s better for European people to use words and to explain very well things. And the physical exercise should be used only to help understanding with word. So far I think that is good for European people, because they should have a solution with word. They don´t like pushing thoughts away.
Offcourse you too, some time in the past started practising Ki. Could you give me an idea of what this meant to your own daily life?
For my daily life nothing because I started this kind of things of, let´s say curiosity, so it was more like a research. For me it is just like doing scientific research. I do research for life.
Do you like your job?
Yes,yes.
When teaching Ki Aikido you very often, I recall, use the concept of gravity to explain and guide movement. Could you give me some explanation of why gravity is so important for us?
No in the daily life, gravity normally is not important at all to us. It is only when you do Aikido techniques that it becomes more important. But then, even for people who don´t practise Aikido it is important to understand gravity. Many people have a wrong concept of gravity, and with this wrong concept they create mistakes in the daily life. That is the only reason why I teach this ´keep weight underside´in the Ki class for people who don´t practise Aikido. For Aikido technique, clearly it is very importan
Interview with Yoshigasaki-sensei.
8 dan Shin shin toitsu aikido (at that time)
Chief instructor of Ki no Kenkyukai Europe.
The interview was made by Matthias Rezac during the summercamp in Sweden 1998.
MR: Sensei, when did you start to train aikido and why?
Yoshigasaki-sensei: I started to train aikido in 1968 when I was 17 years old. It was just by chance in the sense that somebody invited me to come to an aikidodojo. I saw it and I started training. It was just by chance.
MR: What is the main purpose for training in aikido? Why should one train aikido instead of something else?
Sensei: Everybody trains what he likes so the reason is because you like it. This is from the students perspective. From the teachers side each teacher determines what he wants to teach.
MR: Could you please explain the relationship between relaxation and calmness.
Sensei: Technically, aikido comes from Japanese fighting arts. With and without weapon, which is normally called ju jutsu in Japan. But then the founder Ueshiba Morihei became religious, changed everything and reorganised it according to this religious idea. Meaning something that makes people peaceful and spiritual. But then, he did it believing in God, whereas most people do not really believe in God so you can’t do it his way directly.
There are two ways to understand peace and spirituality, religion and meditation. So people who do not seriously believe in God must go to meditation to understand these things. So what I teach is aikido based on meditation. Then to understand spirituality you have to understand "eternal happiness". Without understanding this, spirituality doesn’t work. That is why in religion they talk about eternal happiness after death, a paradise. But in meditation this eternal happiness must happen while we are still alive. Then to understand this eternal happiness, all you have to do is not to disturb it. So not to disturb this is called calmness. This eternal happiness happens only when you can perceive everything as one. When you perceive everything as one that is called relaxation.
MR: A few days ago you said that you used to be uke for Tohei-sensei. Could you please explain the importance of ukemi.
Sensei: Ukemi means receiving something through your body. This relaxation, calmness e t c is something that you can see from outside, but that is not enough. It is better that you feel it within your own body. So in a way if nage is calm and relaxed clearly the ukemi also understands calmness and relaxation. With the body of course, not intellectually. In a way that is the essential part of aikido, that you transmit something physically. Uke learns calmness and relaxation on condition that nage knows these things.
MR: During seminars you don’t use that many different people as uke. If doing ukemi for someone who knows about relaxation and calmness is this important, how come you don’t walk around and let more students do ukemi.
Sensei: The thing is that everything physical depends on quantity. So in a way it is not enough to throw someone once or twice. By throwing people with calmness and relaxation you change their body and that takes some time. So it is impossible to do it to everybody and therefore you are obliged to choose. So that is why I choose one, basically an instructor, as it is important that the instructors know this. Then I continue until I get some result. When I get some result I change ukemi.
MR: Sensei, what is kiai and how can one train kiai?
Sensei: Kiai and aiki go together. "Ai" means harmony and "ki" is something not clear. Everything can be divided into something clear and something not clear. Something clear means words, materials… Anything that can be captured by science is something clear. Anything that is difficult to capture by science, like love, harmony or beauty, is something not clear. So everything means something clear plus something not clear. And since everybody knows that which is clear we can understand everything by emphasising on ki, that is something not clear.
So aiki means that the whole entity of one person and another comes into harmony. That is aiki. Kiai means the harmony of one person as aiki is the harmony of two ore more people. Kiai is inside. Normally to have kiai is the basic "keeping one point". That means kiai. Then clearly if one has harmony in oneself, one is always strong and harmonious. Expression of that is the voice, so very often kiai is expressed in the voice. So normally when people say kiai they mean the voice that comes from the harmony of one self.
MR: You often talk about concepts. What do you mean with concept?
Sensei: Concept roughly means the meaning of each word, the relationship between words and the reality. Not only words actually. It can be the relationship between any expression, like movement, and reality. That is what I mean with concept.
MR: Other instructors often talk about kokyu, but you don’t. Why?
Sensei: Because kokyu means breathing. So I talk about breathing. But actually in Japan when they say kokyu, it means harmony because they have found out that for harmonious movement, harmonious action, breathing plays a big part. When they talk about harmonious action they emphasise the importance of breathing, good controlled breathing. So in a way those people who talk about kokyu don’t exactly know what harmony is, so they are just copying ancient tradition. It actually means just to control breathing and to find that harmonious action.
MR: How would you define the concept budo?
Sensei: Budo is a rather new concept, actually Japanese. I once talked about it with a Chinese martial teacher. He said that budo is Japanese, not Chinese. In China there are fighting techniques and there is religion. Fighting techniques for your body and you train your mind with religion. That is the Chinese idea, which more or less is the same as here in Europe. You train your body with sport and then your mind with religion or philosophy. But then we have the characteristic of this budo. The word was invented in Japan about a hundred years ago. It means that they wanted to mix physical activity and religion or moral activity. That is the unification of mind and body.The real meaning of budo is to train mind and body together. But in most cases the real meaning is forgotten and all over the world budo simply means fighting techniques or self defence.
MR: What is "soku shin no gyo" and why train it in ki-aikido?
Sensei: It is shouting with misogi. So it is part of the breathing exercise which is good because breathing is associated with physical movement and voice. It is just good training.
MR: I heard that you are, finally, going to write two books. What will they be about?
Sensei: One about life and one about aikido. (the one about life, can be seen here, Editor)
MR: Why have you chosen to write them now?
Sensei: The material I teach has become big in quantity so it has become difficult for people to understand as the brain can’t take in too many things at one time. I think it is more convenient that it is written in a book so if people are interested they can read it many times.
MR: O-sensei is said to have had some kind of religious experience that changed his way of looking at budo and that made him start creating aikido from older ju jutsu. His faith was his source of inspiration. What makes you continue year after year teaching and developing aikido? What is your source of inspiration?
Sensei: It is just a natural thing. I think it is just the nature of the human brain.
MR: In an interview with Saito-sensei he says that O-sensei did not teach weapon outside Iwama, but that he always said that the relationship between ken and tai jutsu was very important. If this is so, from where does the bokken and jo-techniques in ki-aikido come?
Sensei: First you have to understand what Saito means by "teach". Ueshiba used to show a lot of things without teaching, saying that only he could do it and that it was no use the students do it. In Tokyo Ueshiba Morihei showed many techniques of bokken and jo, but he never tried to teach it to his students. Clearly the students tried to copy it, but of course this is difficult. Tohei-sensei just watched it and tried to remember and understand the movements. After that he developed this bokken and jo of ki-aikido. So clearly it is not exactly the same as Ueshiba´s bokken and jo, it is Tohei-sensei’s, but still it is based on what Ueshiba was doing.
MR: When I compare the rei, the etiquette, on the tatami it is very different for instance between that of Iwama ryu and that of ki-aikido. At the summercamps in particular I see many people sitting in a bad manner here. What is your reaction to this lack of etiquette in Sweden? Is it the same in other European countries?
Sensei: Correct etiquette is the expression of ones own mind. There are two ways. To start from the outside and hope it will go inside. That means first teach correct etiquette outside. That is one way. The other is to start from the inside. To teach mind and wait until it goes outside. I think I am doing it case by case. For instance in England they are very keen on outside etiquette there. Here in Sweden maybe you are better on inside etiquette. If the lack of etiquette doesn’t disturb other people I choose to teach more from the inside. But if it does disturb others, maybe it would be better to emphasise etiquette a bit more.
MR: Thank you sensei for letting me do this interview.